Rebecca Hossain on the unique challenges and opportunities of a National Museum in a London house.
Sir John Soane was one of the world's most famous neo-classical architects. He built and lived in a house in London which, when he died, he left to the nation. The result is a house museum that has National Museum status and - according to the terms in Sir John's will - has been kept as it was at the time of his death in 1837. Rebecca Hossain is Director of Commercial and Operations.
The museum displays Soane's collection of antiquities, furniture, sculptures, architectural models, paintings – including work by Hogarth, Turner and Canaletto – and over 30,000 architectural drawings. It’s a vast, extraordinary collection, full of curiosities and surprises.
In this episode of 'Arts & Culture', host Tom Dawson visits the museum and speaks to Rebecca Hossain about the unique challenges and opportunities that a house museum like this presents. We find out why red wine is forbidden at functions, why there are no labels or signs in the museum... and how a crucial decision made during lockdown has opened up the museum to a whole new generation of visitors.
There are also brilliant insights into strategising decades ahead and how the physical nature of a museum presents a unique chance to build loyalty and camaraderie amongst its staff.
For more information on the museum, visit soane.org
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Tom Dawson: [00:00:00] Hi Rebecca.
Rebecca Hossain: Hello.
Tom Dawson: Thank you for joining us on the podcast. It is an absolute pleasure to be at the Sir John Soane Museum. It's one of my So we are sat in, what is this, your seminar room? This is the seminar room. Looking out over Lincolns Inn Fields on a rainy day, in a very Soanian room. So before we kick off and get really into what it's like working in this amazing house museum, tell us, so we can get to know you a bit better, two truths and a lie, and I will try and guess which is which.
Rebecca Hossain: So, I have performed in the Nutcracker. at the ENO, because ballet has always been one of my passions. Okay. I dressed up as Frida Kahlo to attend the private view of Frida Kahlo when we had the retrospective exhibition at Tate Modern. And, my first experience at the Design Museum. was in a hard hat and steel toed boots when the basement was flooded and there were diggers [00:01:00] there in the former Commonwealth Institute.
Tom Dawson: Ah, okay. Ooh, those are all good. I'm, I'm definitely gonna say the lies the first one because I think you wished you'd been on stage at the year though.
Rebecca Hossain: Well, I've always loved ballet, so I'll just stick to fine art then. Okay.
Tom Dawson: Well, maybe we'll have to come back to the Design Museum and then tame those things.
Tom Dawson: I bet there's some good stories there. Brilliant. So, we're in this incredible space. For those Poor people who've not had the pleasure of coming to the Sir John Soane Museum before. How would you describe coming through the front door off the square into this house? What greets you as you first enter?
Rebecca Hossain: Well, I think one of the wonderful things is that you enter through number 13, which was Soane's front door. We let people in. in small groups because we have to maintain capacities. So you come in through the front door as if you were attending a tea party or a dinner party at Soane's [00:02:00] and you're welcomed.
Rebecca Hossain: And one of the first rooms that you come into is his famous library dining room which has thousands of books in and is just beautiful. And I think for people who haven't been here before you just need a moment to immerse yourself in it because From outside it doesn't give you the impression that you're gonna have that kind of experience.
Rebecca Hossain: It's like you've been thrown back in time and Even the smells feel old That's what first greets you. I won't say what else you'll get along the way because I'm hoping you might ask me But yeah, that's that's the beginning of your visit.
Tom Dawson: It's almost TARDIS like in a way, isn't it? I've been around with people Before who have who it's their first time.
Tom Dawson: Yeah, and there's almost an overwhelming feeling Because it's crammed full of antiquities and architectural models and drawings. I mean, it's quite incredible. It's quite unique, isn't it?
Rebecca Hossain: It is. I mean we like to say that we do a good line in maximalism here. Yeah [00:03:00] Um, we had a bit of visitor feedback recently where, um, someone said, Take that, you minimalists!
Rebecca Hossain: Loves the John Soans Museum. So there is that sense of every corner, every spot is filled with casts and sculptures and works of art. And even when I've worked here for almost four years and the light shines on something and I think, gosh, I've not noticed that before. And I talked to colleagues who've been here for 25 years and they say the same.
Rebecca Hossain: You spot something new, you spot a new detail. One of the amazing things is sitting in the dome area, just next to the Apollo Belvedere is one of my favourite sculptures and watching the visitors come in and you have to watch their mouths because they go like this which is going to be really hard to reproduce on a podcast but they open their mouths and it's just this O shape and their eyes are ah they and they're just saying wow [00:04:00] and it's that wow factor which is amazing because A, they don't expect it, even if they've read about it or they've seen pictures on Instagram or friends have told them, until they experience it for themselves.
Rebecca Hossain: They don't quite believe it, and that's just fantastic. I sort of say that, in a way, we under promise and over deliver, because people are just thinking, that looks interesting, I'm going to join that queue. And they come in and they have an amazing time. Recently we had a visitor say that it was their sixth visit and they just loved it as much as the first time.
Tom Dawson: Amazing. First time I came in, I think I stumbled across it in a way because I came down to look at a University Open Day, I think they called it, in London, which I eventually moved to London on. I remember So, really interesting how this is, uh, sort of the 4, 000 year old Egyptian tomb in the basement, sarcophagus, and it's just one of many.
Tom Dawson: And I just thought, this is just here amongst all of these [00:05:00] things. And I just looked at it for ages and it just blew me away. I had something about it and I've, yeah, never forgotten it since. So it's always top of my list of recommendations. Well, thank you. So, really interesting how this This came to be, you said this was where Sir John Soane lived and worked, and a specific Act of Parliament was passed to preserve the house in its current form, is that right?
Rebecca Hossain: Yes, so Soane had wanted to leave this house and this museum to his sons, but they were a disappointment to him in different ways. So in 1833, he had a private Act of Parliament created. Leaving this museum to the nation. The Sone is, like all other national museums, like the British Museum, National Gallery, V& A, and National Museum, albeit the smallest national museum.
Rebecca Hossain: And when he did sadly die in 1837, it passed to the nation to be kept for visitors to come in free. In [00:06:00] perpetuity, although he did say he would prefer not on wet and dirty, filthy weather days. So, you know, he liked his, his, his house to be nicely preserved. So that's how it came to be one of our national treasures.
Tom Dawson: Brilliant. What you would call a house museum, isn't it? Mm hmm. Does that present Particular challenges because I mean part of its charm is that by its very nature But I imagine maybe from your point of view you're quite limited in your flow of visitors your capacity What sort of challenges does that present?
Rebecca Hossain: Well, the museum is made up of three grade one listed buildings and We have to look after this Museum forever. It's not just for the current generation. So we have a capacity of 85 at any one time. You know, I like to say sometimes it's like a a really good nightclub. We have to let someone out before we can let someone in.
Rebecca Hossain: It's a one in one out policy. And, you know, people are queuing outside the [00:07:00] gate and they don't seem to mind because they think it's, think it's worth it. So we do, we do limit the numbers, but also I think that's very nice for visitor experience because some of the spaces are so narrow, so tiny. I mean, when I was doing the, in, in, in the pandemic when I had to make the safe spaces. Some of them had a capacity of one. One person could be in that space. So we have to think about that, preserving the collection. Things are not in behind glass. Things are not not labeled as per Sir John Stone's wishes. He wanted it left exactly as it was when he died. And so we haven't been able to add anything and we haven't been able to take anything away, which includes Signage, labels, etc.
Rebecca Hossain: And I think, actually, that makes for a really lovely visitor experience because it's a really immersive experience. You know, you can really imagine yourself. Visiting Soane or Eliza. So, I think that's something that more museums should [00:08:00] do. But that's something about a house museum. You know, you move to the different rooms.
Rebecca Hossain: So, from the library dining room here, you would normally go to the number 13 breakfast room, which is a stunning space. It has over a hundred mirrors, beautiful light, skylights, views onto the monument, court, et cetera. And imagine that that would be the place where they would have breakfast. I mean, it's just amazing.
Rebecca Hossain: So the thing about being, working in a house museum is I think it's important to reflect how it was in its day and to try and bring that to life for visitors. And we do that through storytelling. Our staff and volunteers are brilliant at storytelling. They're quite competitive at it. And spend a lot of time Uh, learning about.
Rebecca Hossain: About Soane, about how things were, what they would have eaten, how their day would have gone. So that's a really nice thing to share with visitors. But I think one of the things that the Soane's doing [00:09:00] really well now is we've got a couple of gallery spaces, so we're able to continue with Soane's love of cutting edge art, design, architecture by hosting temporary exhibitions.
Tom Dawson: It's interesting you, you sort of said you've got that challenge of not being able to label anything or have any explanations. How do you engage people who might come through the door and not know anything about That particular area of history or architecture. Is it through, you know, really great visitor experience staff and storytelling and engaging them in that way?
Rebecca Hossain: That's one of the things. I mean, I think people like to learn in different ways. So we do have a lovely little guidebook, which we offer at the number 13 door for a modest price, which kind of takes you on a little tour around the museum. We're also part of the Bloomberg Connects app because some people like to listen to things and find their own way.
Rebecca Hossain: And then the visitor assistants and volunteers, they're really [00:10:00] brilliant at bringing it to life. And they, you know, they do do the storytelling and all of them have different areas of expertise. Some are really great on architecture, some know everything about art, some know about the drawings collection, some know about the history.
Rebecca Hossain: I think they're really sensitive about how they approach. People that they might ask questions. Do you, do you want to know a bit more about this or how does this room make you feel rather than an information download, you know, that might put some people off?
Tom Dawson: Yeah, I really like that. I really asking how does a room make you feel?
Tom Dawson: But the emotive side of it. Absolutely. It's not dry facts and figures. Yeah. That's really interesting. So one of my favorite rooms is the picture room, which is a really small space and it's got how many pictures in it?
Rebecca Hossain: It's 117.
Tom Dawson: Wow. You know, you're famous for having Hogarth's and Canaletto's, Piranesi's and things.
Tom Dawson: I'm going to ask you a very cruel question. I mean, do you have a favourite space?
Rebecca Hossain: I do love the picture room, I have to say. And I love the picture room. Partly because of the central [00:11:00] Canaletto, because I can look at that and think that I'm in Venice. And I actually think that Soane put that there and he could look right through the, right through the dome area.
Rebecca Hossain: He could be looking at it on Venice. It's not just a painting. I do love the picture room. I love the picture room because it's so advanced, you know, with the picture planes for people who don't know, haven't seen, there's works of art hung on the planes that open and they're on the insides as well. And it's, it's absolutely magical.
Rebecca Hossain: It's going to be 200 years next year, the picture room, it was founded the same time as the National Gallery. And I understand when it was founded in 1824 it had more works of art in that picture room than the National Gallery when it first opened. That's a good fact.
Tom Dawson: Yeah. That's a good fact. So let's talk about the challenges of funding an organisation like this.
Tom Dawson: So obviously commercial falls under your remit. Yes. What are the most important income streams for you in this space?
Rebecca Hossain: Because we're a [00:12:00] national museum, we benefit from funding from the DCMS, the Department for Culture, Media, and Sport, for which we're really grateful. Fundraising and development income's really important, but the area that I mostly look after is commercially generated income, and we have a trading company, Soane Museum Enterprises, which does really well, and I think there are a number of different income streams.
Rebecca Hossain: Best performing ones is our shop, and we have the advantage of people having to exit via the museum gift shop through number 12. And I like to say that people give us their feedback through their wallets. They've had a good time. They want to take a piece of their own home legally, so they buy something from the shop.
Rebecca Hossain: It's no surprise that Our mirrors are really popular, anything that people see in the museum, anything that's unique, anything that's bespoke, anything Hogarth does really well, I could go on. So that's an important income stream. Our venue hire as well. And as you talked about. [00:13:00] The challenges of using the space and the spaces because there's lots of different demands on the spaces.
Rebecca Hossain: We've got lectures, public programs, patrons, events, dinners, drinks, receptions, candlelit, lates, tours, you know, and everyone sort of scrambling around to try and use the spaces for their own needs. I mean, I always say one museum, one team anyway, so I'm always very accommodating and whatever's the most important thing for the museum, that's what we'll, we'll try and accommodate.
Rebecca Hossain: Venue High is really important, and people just love the dinners and drinks receptions, the candlelit tours. I think one of the things we try to do is to make people feel As close to the sewn experience, I was talking about something being very sewn in, so that they immerse themselves and it feels really authentic.
Rebecca Hossain: Everything that we do in commercial has to be really authentic, can't be something that's just going to make money and [00:14:00] is the next best thing. So we've tried really hard for it to feed into the visitor experience, feed into the history of the museum, tap into the exhibitions or the programs. And I think You know, in our sector, where that's done the best, I think you'll find the best commercial performance.
Tom Dawson: Talking about the, um, events and private hire, we're interested in so many venues who have an incredible space, but there's often, there can be a tension between conserving those spaces. But also using them for income generation. How do you get around that at the Soane?
Rebecca Hossain: Well, we've got some wonderful protocols about that, and there's a couple of things that we do.
Rebecca Hossain: First of all, as I mentioned, I think of it as one museum, one team, and I always go and chat to colleagues in conservation or my events. Manager will go and chat to a colleague in conservation and say, A client wants to do this. How do you think we can make this happen without it affecting the [00:15:00] zone? We normally make it work.
Rebecca Hossain: I mean, the other thing that I have found is that if you explain to people why they can't have red wine, why they can't have canapes that are going to drop juice all over the place, because of our mission and because of our history, it's amazing how understanding they are. And in fact, They actually really respect that and they think okay, wow, you know, I really am hosting in a very, very special place and I need to respect that too and it can't just be about me wanting to have my guests wear stilettos and have a disco and have lychee juice because it's just not appropriate for the Soane and these three grade one listed buildings.
Tom Dawson: You talk about sort of the, the being almost like a family. atmosphere here. I mean, that sounds really important to you and the way you manage your team.
Rebecca Hossain: The funny thing is, um, when I interview people, they say, what's it like working at the zone? And I say, well, it is like being in a family. The staff have a mess room where they congregate and [00:16:00] share tea and coffee and everything.
Rebecca Hossain: We have a common room upstairs. So it's, it's got a very nice old school feel and people really do care for one another. People work here for a long time. Some people have been here for over 30 years, so they're real sewn experts. The front of house staff are, you know, they've been here for such a long time and they do look out for one another.
Rebecca Hossain: When someone has a baby, we welcome the new sewn baby. When it's someone's work anniversary, we celebrate with a sewn iversary. And I think one of the reasons that that is, is, is because it is a house museum, and when we're showing visitors around, it's almost as if we're saying, oh, this is my breakfast room, and this is my library dining room.
Rebecca Hossain: I mean, obviously that's not what we're saying, but there is that pride. In the spaces and what they're used for.
Tom Dawson: That's really interesting. So, I mean, it sounds to me like you've got a fantastic job, but you've worked in some equally interesting places [00:17:00] in your career. So you started working here in what, 2021?
Rebecca Hossain: 2020. Three weeks before the pandemic.
Tom Dawson: Oh, wow. That was fun. Good timing. So previous to that, you've been at the Design Museum, National Portrait Gallery, Tate. How did you sort of begin working in the museum cultural sector?
Rebecca Hossain: I mean, it's a great question because I actually fell into museums. I started my career working for a non governmental organization in Bangladesh.
Rebecca Hossain: Bangladesh Rural Advancement Committee and it's one of the largest NGOs in the world. And I'd been at the LSE just across from Lincoln's Inn Fields and read law and I wanted to go to Bangladesh and work in an NGO. And the executive director said, I think you'll be great in commercial when he interviewed me.
Rebecca Hossain: I didn't have a particular role in mind. So I ended up managing the flagship. showroom there of the, it was a place called Arong, which means a village fair, and it sells all the products of artisans from all over the country, [00:18:00] all these wonderful creative makers make spectacular things. And part of my role was to go out and meet all of these artisans and to see their skills and see how they made things and try and.
Rebecca Hossain: Explain that to the shoppers when they were buying the products conveying those histories. So all the profits would plow back into the charities, the NGO. And I really loved that. That was my first taste of making money for a good cause. And that's what I still say now. I just love making money for a good cause.
Rebecca Hossain: So when I came back to England, I thought, well, I've got these skills, but how can I apply them? I ran my own fair trade business for five years. And then after that, I thought I'm going to apply for a job. And I saw. I saw the role in the Guardian newspaper at Tate Modern. I thought, oh, that's my dream job.
Rebecca Hossain: And I got it, so I joined Tate Modern when it was only four years old. I kind of like to say I'm collecting cool museums, and it is the privilege of my life to work for some of these places. I mean, [00:19:00] it's such an honour. But so then, yeah, Tate, then the National Portrait Gallery, which was just wonderful. I had over five years there.
Rebecca Hossain: Fell in love with all of the faces at the Portrait Gallery. Then I was recruited to the Design Museum for the great move from Shad Thames to Kensington. That was another thing. Amazing. Almost three and a half years, four years, and now so in a house museum.
Tom Dawson: So if you were to give advice to anyone who wants to Come into the cultural sector.
Tom Dawson: You said you had experience out of it, and you brought that knowledge in. What would you say to someone who was, who was looking for a job?
Rebecca Hossain: I would say, see what your passions are, and try and maybe volunteer somewhere, or, you know, work part time there, to find out what it's really like, and get some skills, and get some experience.
Rebecca Hossain: I also think that if your passion is Go and work in a photography museum or a gallery. [00:20:00] Go and work in London Zoo, because these skills are transferable. And visitor attraction element, the organization element, all of the departments that you have to work together to make something a really special place.
Rebecca Hossain: There's that consistency across the board. Working in, you know, in other organizations really helps. It brings things in, you know. Working on, in high street retail is, is fantastic. Working in universities, libraries. I mean, all, all of these skills, they all add to what can be a really great career. But I, I think the most important thing is to follow your, your passion.
Rebecca Hossain: Immerse yourself, go to lots of exhibitions if that's your thing. And then spy and see what they do in the shops and what do they have in the cafe. Go to the events. So, that sort of thing, being really, really immersive. But I think also working in our sector, and I know this isn't exactly what you've asked, but it's such a wonderful sharing sector, just get in touch with people.
Rebecca Hossain: I mentor a number of young women as it happens who want to come [00:21:00] into the sector, and I'm always sending them, you know, roles or talking to them about how they can improve their CVs or what they can do. But the great sharing sector that we are and the organizations like. The Association for Cultural Enterprises is such a great way in, because you meet like minded people, you meet people who have the same kind of passion and care for our history, our heritage, arts, and welcoming people to places that make them feel good.
Rebecca Hossain: So I think joining those sorts of organisations, and going to the lectures or the events, that's a great thing. One of the things that I do is, I'm a non executive director of a A couple of organizations. One is the trading company at the wonderful poster museum, award winning wonderful poster museum, which does such great exhibitions and has a lovely collection and really great people working there, especially in commercial.
Rebecca Hossain: It's really impressive. And then the other one I [00:22:00] involved in is. Hoxton Street Monster Supplies, which is the trading arm of an amazing writing charity called the Ministry of Stories based in Hoxton. They like to bring out the writer in every child, sort of um, 11 to 15 year olds mostly. Hoxton Street Monster Supplies is like a magical shop, um, attached to the ministry.
Rebecca Hossain: I chair their shop board and that's a great, great way to give back and a great way to cross fertilize ideas across our sector.
Tom Dawson: Yeah, big fan of Hoxton Street Monster Supplies. Good gifts, and they've got a fantastic website, haven't they? It's another example of something really commercial, but is giving back to the kind of original cause, the charity.
Tom Dawson: I mean it really It seems to shine through that you get a lot out of giving back to the sector you talked about mentoring being on other organizations. Would you encourage other people to do that time?
Rebecca Hossain: Oh, absolutely. And, you know, it can be quite difficult to get into. museums [00:23:00] and galleries. When I first came back from Bangladesh, I was brought up there and I came here as a student and I felt like an outsider and I thought, you know, these places, I'm so lucky to even be able to walk through the doors and visit some of these institutions.
Rebecca Hossain: To think that I would ever get to work in any of them is It was just a dream, and I think that people think it's harder to get into some of these organizations, and it really is. I'm constantly recruiting people who have the passion and the interest, and then we can train the skills. I think people should welcome people more, and should mentor, and should share knowledge.
Rebecca Hossain: I think it's really, really important. And again, I said, The Association of Cultural Enterprises that we're members of does a great job. But there are, you know, there are other organizations out there trying to encourage some more diversity in our sector as well.
Tom Dawson: Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you. Other associations are available, but they're not as good as this one.
Tom Dawson: So staffing and recruitment is a [00:24:00] constant theme to people I talk to and a challenge at the moment. Do you have problems with that at the moment?
Rebecca Hossain: Well, we've got quite a nice reputation for working here at the Soane. It's, we're really lucky. It seems to be the sort of place that attracts people who want to work.
Rebecca Hossain: A lot of people want to work in a house museum. A lot of people want to work with antiquities. Some people like working in a small organisation. So actually we're quite lucky. We do seem to attract people. I think all organizations have been part of the post pandemic recruitment merry go round, which has been, you know, going on.
Rebecca Hossain: That's part of the cost of living crisis, that, that, that impact. But fortunately we've been quite lucky and people seem to like joining the family. Yeah,
Tom Dawson: so talking about your audience, given you said you've got a limited capacity, who is the target audience for the SOWN, if that's not too broad a question?
Rebecca Hossain: Everyone is the target audience for the SOWN, everyone around the world, that's what I like to say. I think that we've got something for everyone. In terms of the [00:25:00] visitors who come, they are local, hyper local, day trippers, art lovers, architecture lovers, lots of tourists, people from all over the world. One of the things that's been interesting is Since the pandemic we've permitted photography in the museum.
Rebecca Hossain: It wasn't permitted before and I managed to get it introduced when our numbers were lower and now that genie is not going back in the bottle. But what's been interesting is How people have been popularizing us on Instagram, on TikTok. They're doing so much of the marketing for us. And with that, it's brought a much more diverse audience, in terms of younger people, international people, people from all different backgrounds.
Rebecca Hossain: And it is really marvellous. I was speaking to a taxi driver. Who came for the first time a few weeks ago, and he said my [00:26:00] daughter showed me the sewn on tick tock and said let's go there And he said I know that place. I've dropped people off there For years and years and years and I've collected people there from there for years and years and years It's not the place that I thought would be for me and she said oh dad, please take us So he brought his three daughters and he had a marvellous time and really enjoyed himself and felt very welcomed And he said my regret was that I hadn't come in sooner.
Rebecca Hossain: So I do feel that our message of It's for everybody, it's really getting out there.
Tom Dawson: And it's free marketing, like you say, so you sort of pushed that through, did you? The social media? Yeah, yes. I mean, I think it's one of your great assets, it's, it's so Instagrammable, and some people might be snobby about that, but that's the world we live in now, and as you say, if it encourages a younger, more diverse audience to find out and discover more about Soane and all the amazing stuff you do, that's a win win situation, I'd imagine.
Tom Dawson: Maybe spend some money as well.
Rebecca Hossain: [00:27:00] Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Book a tour or come to a candlelit evening. One of the things that we're noticing now, because we're capturing a lot of visitor feedback, people are saying, My parents brought me to the Soane. I'm bringing my children. I hope they'll bring their children.
Rebecca Hossain: And I think that's a really lovely tradition that, that people can talk back to. Oh, 40 years ago when I first came, someone came and said, I think it must have been perhaps, 40, 50 years ago, you were allowed to open the picture planes yourself and he came and he was having a go and our visitor assistants had to say, Oh, Oh, we'll have to do that and we have to do it with white gloves.
Rebecca Hossain: So it's interesting how places evolve as we think more and more about conservation.
Tom Dawson: And you mentioned earlier, you said something like it's a place people come to experience. Joy. Yeah, that you know, there's obviously a big element of education and learning in organizations like yours, but [00:28:00] you know, that in and of itself is a worthy end.
Tom Dawson: And I think that's that comes across so strongly here.
Rebecca Hossain: It does. And I think it's actually one of the reasons why people like working here. During the pandemic, we had, you know, when we opened in between and eventually Chile. You know for good. Visitors would say, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for reopening you and all the museums and galleries You don't know how much you were missed.
Rebecca Hossain: These are places where we make our wonderful memories We learn things we're relaxed and we didn't realize how much we missed them until they were closed So thank you for making it a safe space to return to. I would
Tom Dawson: say it's encouraging that it shows that there's still a place And I
Rebecca Hossain: think we are considered one of the best house museums in the world, so it's great that people still want to come [00:29:00] and experience the zone, but people seem to think of it as a hidden gem, and people think they've discovered it, and I think that's quite charming as well, so it's not, it might not be on everyone's To do list, but when they do find it, they think it's their little secret to share.
Tom Dawson: Yeah, absolutely. We've talked about a lot of the kind of positive things. One of the questions I like to ask people is, is there anything you've tried And you've done and it hasn't worked. You know, maybe something in the commercial area. It doesn't have to be, but something that you've tried hasn't quite worked and you know, you've learnt something from.
Rebecca Hossain: One of the things, and it's not exactly in the commercial area but it's with my visitor experience hat on and that obviously bleeds into commercial as well. I started working on an audience development plan and I found that quite hard. To push through and I haven't given up, but I've put it on pause [00:30:00] because we almost a capacity on most days I need to see how I can accommodate all these extra people that I'm hoping to target through the audience development plan.
Rebecca Hossain: And then the other thing is one of the things that we wanted to work on was. Diversifying the audiences more, and that's actually happened quite organically for a number of reasons, partly due to our exhibitions and our programming and our talks program, and even in our recruitment because we've got more, you know, more, more diverse staff and people feel it's a place for everybody.
Rebecca Hossain: And so that that's happened quite organically. So I've had to put the audience development plan So I wouldn't say it hasn't worked, but my vision for it hasn't quite panned out. Okay.
Tom Dawson: And you say some of that's happened organically, but you, you, you must have done something to encourage and develop a more, you know, more diverse staff, for example, you know, what would you say to another organization [00:31:00] trying to do the same?
Rebecca Hossain: Well, we've got a working group at the SONE call that, that focuses on inclusion, diversity, equality, and access all together. And we meet regularly and we look at best practice and we talk about issues and we try when recruiting. To think about where we might put an advert. We've done quite a bit of promotion of staff from within the organization.
Rebecca Hossain: That's a really great way to diversify the staff base, the programming and exhibition planning we're working with. More and more diverse artists all the time. At the moment we've got Naeem Kulkarni, who's an illumination artist, who's illuminated the facade as part of our exhibition Georgian Illuminations.
Rebecca Hossain: And it's just really wonderful working with a cross section of artists from around the world.
Tom Dawson: So are there any big do's and don'ts for, uh, guests who are around the museum?
Rebecca Hossain: Well We do have some guidelines, like we like to [00:32:00] protect the surfaces, so we, um, discourage stilettos. The drink has to be non colored, so white wine, champagne, prosecco, elderflower.
Rebecca Hossain: Can't have red wine because if it does spill, it will, it will stain. I can live with the champagne.
Tom Dawson: Yes. Yes.
Rebecca Hossain: Yes. And I have to say for some of our events, we do a ruin art upgrade on champagne because that was so his favourite brand of champagne.
Tom Dawson: You're really committed to the brand. Do you. Ever have a moment or moments probably where you go, this could only ever happen here.
Rebecca Hossain: The funny thing is Working in museums every day is a new day when people say to me. Why do you like working in museums? Why do you like working at the SOWN? And I said because every day there's something new that happens. It could be Triggered by a visitor. It could be just the combination of what's on show We've got lots and lots of wonderful Stained [00:33:00] glass windows, lots of skylights, um, lots of precious things dotted around the museum.
Rebecca Hossain: And there's lots of crows nearby. And the crows drop the stones and we have a number of Smashed glass and stained glass windows have been smashed just from the crows and we find the stones, uh, later on. I mean, sometimes you have to close a room or, you know, wrap up some of the collection because, because of the crow damage.
Rebecca Hossain: And it's just, I think, being next to Lincoln's infield. It's mad.
Tom Dawson: Those rowdy London crows. Absolutely. So one of the things I did not know about until I came around the museum was the link between Sir John Soane. And the famous red London telephone boxes, which I then also discovered because as a connection leap is Sir Johnstone's tomb to his wife in the St Pancras churchyard isn't there? What's the leap there?
Rebecca Hossain: Well it's, that was his [00:34:00] design. He loved that dome design. If you go around the museum, you'll see it in a number of places and at the Dulwich Picture Gallery. And then it was obviously. You know, adopted for the red telephone box, and I think that's a great example of his innovation and design, because he was very cutting edge, and we always like to say he's the master of space and light, and he uses space and windows.
Rebecca Hossain: You know, if you think when he was designing, there wasn't electricity, so, you know, lights, skylights, stained glass window, that would create all sorts of colours and light into the buildings. And so that, that's a great example of how. innovative he was. You see it at, uh, Dulwich Picture Gallery, because he was the designer of Dulwich Picture Gallery, and then also Pitshanger Manor, um, which is his country home that's just recently been reopened.
Rebecca Hossain: One of the things that we really [00:35:00] enjoy at the Soane, in terms of thinking about the future, and obviously, like all institutions, we're thinking about our strategy for the future, is how to keep So relevant and alive in people's minds and in the discourse of the day. And so the exhibition program, the public programs that we do, the talks, the lectures, the activities have a real forward looking.
Rebecca Hossain: And it feels very much in keeping with Soane because he loved the idea of an academy of architecture, art, design, sculpture. And so we feel that we're continuing his belief, his way of doing things. One of the things that I haven't talked to you about was we reopened the drawing office. Which had not been open to anyone around 200 years.
Rebecca Hossain: And that's where his pupils used to, article clerks and pupils, used to learn their skill as an [00:36:00] architect. And it's basically a wonderful kind of floating office. above the dome area. It's got about 200 amazing casts and objects. I imagine being an article clerk or an apprentice looking at all of these incredible inspirations from antiquity and all different types of architecture and then then having to design something.
Rebecca Hossain: So we reopened that this year. And we do tours to that and we have a an artist in residence program, which, you know, runs for three months at a time. And that's just amazing because we've attracted some young and new artists and designers to that artist in residence program. So I think not only in terms of his designs and his aesthetic are we trying to keep relevant, but trying to inspire future generations of architects.
Tom Dawson: Lovely. So what does the next 10 years look [00:37:00] like for the Sir John Soane?
Rebecca Hossain: I think one of the things is, when you've been a really wonderful museum for over 180 years, you've probably got the basics quite right, haven't you? So it's kind of tinkering at the edges, and part of it is, It's well loved for what it is and how we do things now.
Rebecca Hossain: So I'm a great believer in, if something ain't broke, you, you ought not to fix it. You might need to add things to it and ensure that more people are accessing it and that you are. Spreading the program and spreading the, the knowledge, but I wouldn't want to change anything and we're not allowed to by law.
Tom Dawson: Yeah, well, it's interesting, you know, there's innovation and change is, you know, we need to embrace it. It's inevitable in some ways, but. There are some things which I think it's okay that they stay the same and that [00:38:00] is that is what is so charming I think we've used that word quite a lot today about this place and that's quite rare actually So I think it's yeah, it's a lovely thing in life to kind of encounter that.
Rebecca Hossain: One of the greatest charms is that it's kind of preserved in time and so That ought not to be changed and that cannot be changed.
Rebecca Hossain: We just want to share it more and maybe share more, more things digitally. We're doing more online exhibitions because obviously not everyone can come. And so it's like sharing information, sharing works of art, sharing volumes that have been digitized. You know, we work very hard on digitizing the collection.
Rebecca Hossain: And I think that's a really great way to share what we do. We're working very hard on a learning program. But it is, as you say, a small place, so we have to Maintain the balance and keep the fragile interiors intact.
Tom Dawson: Brilliant. Well, it's been an absolute pleasure, Rebecca. Thank you so [00:39:00] much for having us at the Sir John Soane.
Tom Dawson: Really encourage everyone to visit who hasn't been because it is a charming place, as you said.
Rebecca Hossain: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me.